The following is a lightly edited transcript of the December 11 episode of the
Daily Blast podcast. Listen to it here.
Greg Sargent: This is The Daily Blast from The New Republic, produced and presented by the DSR network. I’m your host, Greg Sargent.
In recent days, Donald Trump and his advisers have left no doubt he will attempt to deport as many of the 11 million undocumented people in this country as possible. But intriguingly, they’re already packaging this with a new spin designed to make this plan look humane. On Fox News, Alina Habba, who will be a top White House lawyer, offered this spin in striking fashion. She said in effect, No, we’re not going to separate families as part of this mass deportation effort; instead, we’re going to deport whole families so they can come back in the right way. That spin is deeply revealing, and here to help us explain why is Vanessa Cardenas, the executive director of America’s Voice. We’ll be talking about all of this. Thanks for coming on, Vanessa.
Vanessa Cardenas: Thank you for having me.
Sargent: Let’s start with Alina Habba. She’s a lawyer for Trump, she’ll be counselor to the president, and she’s a major MAGA figure. The audio is a bit long, but it’s worth it. Listen to this.
Alina Habba (audio voiceover): Nobody is breaking up families. Nobody is targeting individuals and making sure that one over the other goes out. That doesn’t happen under President Trump. It didn’t happen before. But you do not have a right to come here to endanger us or to not come in here the right way. You can come in as an immigrant, as my parents did, but you must do it the right way. So there’s nobody that understands it better than I do. I can assure you, Tom Homan, as tough as nails as he is—he’s looking out for us, and child trafficking is something he’s spoken about extensively. And that is why he wants to get families, if they will cooperate, out and in the right way.
Sargent: Vanessa, this is the emerging spin. Habba clearly is trying to say, Don’t worry, you won’t see families separated like during Trump’s first term. But then she gives away the game at the end saying, We’re going to have to remove entire families. Your thoughts?
Cardenas: It sounds like they are rewriting their whole script. From our perspective, these are the things that we know. One, we know that under the Trump administration, the immigrant communities suffered tremendously. We all remember the family separations that occur; we all remember the kids in cages; we all remember the kids that were forced to be removed from their parents’ arms. And that was not something that we imagined. It’s something that actually happened, and that’s why the American public revolted against those policies.
Second, while Trump was running in this last year and a half, Trump and the entire GOP have embraced a very extreme and very damaging narratives around immigrants, blaming them for everything under the sun, from crime to invasion to try to replace “white people,” “real Americans.” Because we know all of that, it’s hard to believe what they’re spinning right now.
The last piece of evidence for that is people like Stephen Miller and Tom Homan, who are obviously key figures in the Trump administration, have the intention and the desire, and they have been very clear about their plans to target as many people as possible. Tom Homan, in previous interviews, have said things like no one is off the table, meaning that they’re going to deport anyone that they deem should not be here. From what we have heard, it’s pretty much undocumented immigrants, period.
Sargent: No question about it. Let’s talk about what the Trump policy actually is. Over the weekend, in his interview with Meet the Press, Trump confirmed that yes, they’re going to try to deport everybody, but they’re going to start with the criminals, they say. Can I ask, Vanessa, how do you see this unfolding exactly? Obviously, there will be a lot of obstacles to even deporting all the criminals, including due process, budgetary constraints. Regardless, how far do you anticipate them getting with that? When do you think they’ll actually start getting to everybody else, the people who been here for a very long time? In other words, what’s this going to really look like?
Cardenas: It’s really important for us to understand that the reason that they’re trying to spin this now is because they know that most Americans are going to be very uncomfortable seeing, again, families being separated, seeing their coworkers, their neighbors being forcibly removed. They understand that, and that’s why they’re trying to spin it. They’re trying to say that they’re going to go after “criminals.” Once Americans see the real impact that’s going to have not just at a human level, which of course is devastating, but also in our economy, they’re going to reject it.
In terms of how they deploy this, they’re going to try to, again, justify their mass deportation efforts with some high visible rates in targeting maybe blue cities. They’re going to try to be visible and use the media as they have done. But people are not going to accept that. And that’s our hope. Most Americans are going to reject the efforts once they see the real impact on their communities.
Sargent: There’s a decent chance that people like Alina Habba know that this is going to be politically very tough. Let’s go back to her quote for a second. They can say we’re going to remove the criminals first, as Trump and his spinners often do, but either they intend to deport everyone else or they don’t. The fact is they do. Here, Habba acknowledges that they do intend to do that, then tries to make it sound humane by saying, Of course, we’re keeping families together. But she can’t help but admit that Trump’s plan, as described, entails removing whole families. It looks to me like Habba understands the political vulnerability here. What do you think?
Cardenas: They do, and that’s why they’re trying to spin it. As you have said, they’re talking out of both sides of their mouth. Even Trump in his interview over the weekend said that entire families are going to be deported because if there’s a member of a family who’s undocumented, the whole family is going to have to leave. So they’re trying to spin it, but they understand how damaging this is to their agenda.
The other point I want to really drive home on this, Greg, is that we have to be clear that this policy is not going to deliver what Trump promised. It’s going to hurt our families. It means empty chairs around our dinner table. Teachers and health care workers and construction workers—those are the people that Trump is targeting.
Sargent: We’re actually seeing some communities around the country already resisting the mass deportations. We’ve heard, for instance, the construction industry in Texas, where a lot of undocumented immigrants work, is saying if you really go through with your deportation plans, you’re going to really wreck our local economies. And we’re seeing similar things in Georgia as well. What that shows is that even Republican places are starting to realize that maybe we weren’t allowed to say this before, but undocumented immigrants are essential to our communities and our economies. If anything, once the Trumpists really start pushing hard on this, we’re going to have to actually have a real debate about what it is they’re trying to do and what the impact could be. Hopefully, some of these Republican areas can be very clear about the detrimental impact that this is going to have. Are you hopeful that people even in red areas will step forward and say, If you do this, it’s going to really be damaging?
Cardenas: We really need those voices. We really need courageous voices not just from immigrant communities to step up and really meet this moment. I think you’re right, and we saw a little bit of that in Ohio when JD Vance and Trump attacked the Haitian community there. One of the most important and forceful voices there were business owners, employers who talked about Haitian immigrants who are key to their businesses. This is a moment where we need, again, different voices to speak out.
You mentioned a couple of industries, but almost 17 percent of workers in the construction industry are undocumented immigrants. Same thing in agriculture, home care. The list goes on and on. But here’s the stubborn truth about this debate, Greg, and this is what drives me crazy. There are two facts. One is that immigration by far is a positive story to our history. Immigration by far is a contributing factor to the genius of America. Immigration is an essential part of our story, and it is a positive story of contributions, of hard work, of opportunity. That’s the real story of immigration in the United States.
The other stubborn fact, which it drives me crazy and I think people forget, is that immigration is essential for our current and our future prosperity, whether you look at the different ways in which our economy has grown, whether you look at entire sectors of our economy that depend on immigrant workers, and whether you look at how to best grow our economy in the future. What is really disconcerting about this whole debate is that it’s not based on facts; it is based on this really damaging narratives and scapegoating of immigrants.
I really would like us to have a real policy discussion about what’s really needed for the U.S. to manage migration in an effective manner. But that’s not what Trump is offering. He’s actually setting us farther back by dehumanizing immigrants and by creating this divisions that do not get us any closer to actually have an effective immigration system that can meet the needs of our nation.
Sargent: Clearly, the resistance in places like Texas and Georgia, and there will be a lot more, shows what you’re talking about, which is that we need a pathway for these undocumented immigrants to work. Red areas are saying so very clearly. They’re saying we need these people here. And we’re not having the debate.
Can I ask you though, Vanessa, about how Democrats lost Latino voters in startlingly large numbers in this election? What’s your take on why that happened, given that Trump was campaigning so overtly on an anti-immigrant message?
Cardenas: Listen, we can talk for hours on this topic, but here’s where I stand on this. I come from an immigrant family and my family is very diverse; we have people from both Central America and South America and everywhere in between. It’s a combination of factors. One, the economy has always been a top issue for Latino voters. Always, with immigration coming in third or a close second.
The economy is fundamental. Most people don’t understand why, but it’s not just a matter of money. It’s actually a question of safety and security. It is a central part of Latino families wanting to make sure that their family members are taken care of and the reason why they embrace and believe in the American dream and everything that this country has to offer. That’s a big piece of it.
There’s, and I say this as an immigration advocate, deep disappointment among Latino voters on Democrats because they feel like they have not delivered. You can come up with all the reasons, but when it comes to this issue, the community has always stood with Democrats. I’m old enough that I remember the marches in 2006, the millions of people who came out, who stood there and demonstrated their support for policies to reform our immigration system. The community has always been there, but they’re just tired of the promises and they feel like they need a change.
There is also this real sense of unfairness when you have people in your family who have been in the U.S. 20 plus years and don’t have a legal pass or a work permit, and you have recent arrivals who do. I don’t think that Democrats have lost Latino voters for the long term. Latino voters align very much with “progressive values,” but they’re also sending a message saying, You have to take my vote for real and you have to actually deliver. Amidst all of this negativity, for me, the silver lining is that moments like this forces us to really think about what we’re offering our constituencies. The path forward, for Democrats at least, is to really think about what their vision for immigration is, how to get there, and what are the kinds of things that the Latino voters demand.
The last thing I would say on this is Latino voters have always been very pragmatic. When you ask them what they want on immigration, it is a combination of compassion and legalization of pathways, but also order at the border, which reflects what most Americans want.
Sargent: I want to add to your point about Democrats and share what disappoints or disappointed me about them in this campaign on immigration. They just didn’t come out and clearly say what you said, which is immigration is good for the country. Now, you heard it here and there. Kamala Harris did talk about a path to citizenship in select places, but not too often. It was all border security. And I get why Democrats had to emphasize border security; I think they do have to. But the thing they didn’t say is what you said: Immigration is good for our country, Republicans want to kill it. That message did not come through.
Cardenas: It’s really difficult when you have the leader of the Republican Party plus the whole echo chamber pounding on this negative narrative and pouring more than $1 billion on anti-immigration ads constantly, and you have silence on the other side. For your point, that, of course, has had an impact on voters, including Latino voters.
Sargent: Just to close this out, I want to go back to the Alina Habba quote for a second. Note that she actually says the families will go out and then in the right way. The right way. That’s an illusion because the Trumpists are going to try to restrict the right way for immigrants to enter in every conceivable fashion they can get away with.
What I take from that is: Alina Habba knows that people still see immigration as a good thing for the country, so she’s trying to create the impression that the Trump policy is to just temporarily remove people and then let them back in the right way, to create the idea that there’s an orderly pathway and it’ll all be fine. But it won’t be fine. And hopefully, Vanessa, will mass deportations get people to realize what you said, which is that what they want is immigration managed well for the country in addition to border security? Will the cruelty of mass deportations get people to finally get to that place where they realize that that’s what they want?
Cardenas: I think so. What we saw back in 2017–2019 is the rejections of Trump’s policies. Once again, when Americans see the real impacts of mass deportations on their daily lives and on their friends and families and coworkers, they’re going to reject that. It might be that we have to go through the dark night to be able to see a better day for us. Unfortunately, we might have to go through it, but we’re going to put up a fight every step of the way.
Sargent: Vanessa Cardenas, thank you so much for coming on with us.
Cardenas: Thank you.
Sargent: You’ve been listening to The Daily Blast with me, your host, Greg Sargent. The Daily Blast is a New Republic podcast and is produced by Riley Fessler and the DSR Network.